Antagonizing the Antagonizing the Murder Theory

[HippieChild]

This one if for you Danielle. Pay close attention. You recently posted "antagonizing the murder theory" by David Perle and said that what he has to say made sense. Well, I dug a little deeper and came across a website called "who killed Kurt Cobain" and found something very interesting. It seems Mr. Perle has had a change of heart and antagonized his own antagonize, so to speak. It's very long so I broke it up into a few posts. Observe:

"Burden Of Proof"
To begin, as was made painfully clear in the infamous O.J. Simpson criminal trial, the "burden of proof" in such a case is placed solely in the hands of the prosecution. Those who are waiting for Courtney Love and other people to speak out, and/or those who ask for proof of suicide are all missing this point.

However, I do believe that in this document I exhibit loads of proof that:


a: Kurt Cobain had expressed suicidal tendencies for years and fit the profile of someone who could and quite possibly would commit suicide to a tee

b: Courtney Love had saved Kurt Cobain's life numerous times in the past under different circumstances, and therefore obviously loved him very much, making it extremely unlikely that she would go through the trouble that Grant claims she did to have her husband, Kurt Cobain, murdered

c: The main objective of this document, that Tom Grant just does not provide sufficient proof of murder. He has given personal testimony from two known people; one of which has in turn publicly said that she never said what he claims she has, and the other person turns out to be an admitted junkie. The rest of Grant's testimony is given by anonymous sources. We have been promised with every update of his that he will soon give real evidence, but he's barely given any, and one wonders if anything will ever come.
"...one of which has in turn publicly said..." Actually, I don't know exactly how accurate this old statement is; she says nothing of the sort today, and Grant points to his having her on tape giving this testimony as the reason.

While most of Grant's sources have been anonymous, the testimony supporting Grant's claims given in the 1998-released book "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" is not.

I now realize that it would be illegal for Grant to expose is further evidence outside of a trial; it is such an act that Courtney's legal team tried to have Grant's license revoked by. Obviously any public invitations by the team for Grant to expose his further evidence would simply be a legal trap.)

However, to make my position clear despite where the burden or proof lies, I too would be extremely interested to hear what people like Courtney Love, Rosemary Carrol, Dylan Carlson, etc. have to say about this case matter.

Courtney's Behavior
Am I impartial to this whole thing, having no more loyalty to Love than Grant? On this very page I used to say that "No; I never claimed to be." But times have changed, and I am trying to be as objective as I can. It remains that first and foremost I am a Kurt Cobain fan, and I still must hold certain respect for the fact that Courtney Love was one of the few people in Kurt Cobain's life whom he liked; trusted; loved. That must be remembered by all fans of Kurt Cobain, always.

Still, Courtney Love is a very interesting person. I've heard many rumors about her, just as many of you have. Some are true, some are false or exaggerated, others may or may not be true. However, in recent times she has drastically changed her act, seemingly, and I believe that she must be given credit for that. (Or her publicity firm, anyway.)

But as for whether or not I have more loyalty to Courtney Love than I do to Tom Grant...enough of the b.s. No I don't. Not anymore. And this page is written to hold that ideal true. On the other hand, I will not subscribe to stupid theories trying to be passed off as proof of murder.

People use Courtney Love's eccentricity to show that she's "not playing with a full deck," and some of her behavior from after Kurt Cobain's death is used to show that she did not care very much for him. Certain instances may be interpreted however they will; I've interpreted certain instances in ways that might surprise some of you. However, this eccentricity did not only arise after Kurt Cobain's death. Within the quotes that follow, Kurt addresses his wife's behavior:


"...While all these things were very special, none were half as rewarding as having a baby with a person who is the supreme example of dignity, ethics, and honesty. My wife challenges injustice and the reason her character has been so severely attacked is because she chooses not to function the way the white corporate man insists. His rules for women involve her being submissive, quiet, and nonchallenging. When she doesn't follow his rules, the threatened man gets scared."
That quote pretty much speaks for itself. (I do have one comment, however; I am not calling Tom Grant a misogynist, as many of my supporters seem to believe he is. I personally have no reason to believe this, and never have.) He loved her and went out of his way to stand up for her. A quote recorded live at the Reading Festival in England, 8/92:


"I want to dedicate this song to my 12-day-old daughter, and my wife...(crowd is cheering)...and um....(cheering)...there's been some pretty extreme things written about us, especially my wife, and she thinks that everybody hates her now." (Crowd starts yelling, "NO!!!!") "So um, this is being recorded, so, why don't you give her a message and say, 'Courtney, we love you.'" (Crowd starts cheering and yelling loudly) "Okay? Ready? On the count of 3...1, 2, 3..." (crowd: "COURTNEY, WE LOVE YOU!!!!!!") "Thanks." (Band plays "All Apologies")


To be continued...

[HippieChild]

From the note accepted as being Kurt Cobain's suicide note, and definitely written anywhere from days to minutes before he died:
"I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter..."
The preceding paragraphs were intended to try to help show that complaints of Courtney Love behaving in ways that Kurt Cobain would disapprove of are unjustified. While the first two examples themselves have little to do with whether or not she had him killed, they ARE a critical piece of the murder conspiracy theory's backbone. And while the first two quotes are rather old, the third very much is not. Supported by all three quotes, I think that it is important to keep in mind that Kurt Cobain went out of his way to stand behind his wife, Courtney Love. Anybody who read or saw any of Kurt's more passionate interviews regarding the whole Vanity Fair ordeal knows that he almost literally wanted to kill that woman, Lynn Hirschberg, who said the things she said about Courtney. The way she trashed Courtney. Check out "Come As You Are" page 269, top half of the page. Keep this in mind as you read Tom Grant's documents.

(Of course, people change...)

Also regarding Courtney's behavior, an observation of mine is that Tom Grant makes Kurt out to be such a great human being, practically an angel, while making Courtney sound like such a horrible, horrible person. Really a mega-pregnant dog, and murderer. Doesn't he know that the thing that attracted Kurt to Courtney in the first place was her apparent insanity, and the fact that she was sort of the female version of HIM? He always told people that in the early 90's. Likewise, in his Advocate interview he spoke about how much it hurt him whenever people would say bad things about her. Just an observation.

Before I move on to the next section, I wanted to bring up all of the stories about how Courtney had supposedly been "sleeping around" with a lot of people not long after Kurt's death. A lot of people try to use this not only as evidence of her being a "total pregnant dog!!!", but evidence that she didn't care about Kurt, and probably just wanted to have him killed so that she could go after other guys. This is not necessarily the case at all. Whether or not you believe Kurt to have committed suicide, picture it like this:

Here's a woman who's been trying to keep her husband as happy as possible, and keep him alive, and then one day she finds out that he finally did it; he finally killed himself. He's gone. He's left her, their daughter, and everyone else alone. She's been abandoned by her husband. It is not uncommon at all for people in this situation to feel an overwhelming sense of loss, and perhaps a serious need to seek out affection from other people, such as Billy Corgan, Trent Reznor, Evan Dando, and everyone else with whom she's been rumored to have slept after Kurt's death. If anything, that shows a certain weakness of hers. Don't hate her for that. She was abandoned. It doesn't mean at all that she didn't love Kurt very, very much. Even if she did not, this is no proof of it.

HOWEVER, the rumors that she'd been sleeping around from before Kurt's death...those are different. (Although it must be stressed that these are rumors, not necessarilly facts. If these rumors are true, then that may be something. But as for now, they are just rumors.

Courtney's Threats
On to other stuff, Grant keeps bringing up the fact that Courtney keeps threatening to sue him...I think this excerpt from an e-mail I have received sums it up pretty well: "Also, with regard to Grant whining about how big, bad Courtney keeps threatening to sue him for libel... Well, yes, that is generally what people do when other people try to publish stories falsely accusing them of felonies." If Courtney Love is truely innocent of the accusations made about her, then there you go.
While Courtney and her camp never did sue for libel, they did sue Grant to try to have his license revoked. In the end, Courtney's high-priced legal team did not succeed in getting Grant's license revoked, and I believe that shows something about the validity of his investigation. However, the case did leave him close to bankrupt, and at the time of my writing this, there is fresh information that he has now become bankrupt. But keep in mind that with all of the threats of sueing for libel, she never did. This is because doing so would give Grant the vehicle to legally expose the evidence he has against her.

Where's the Proof?
Those who've attacked me for apparently believing that I give proof that Tom Grant's files are "crap" (something that I'm no longer doing) when I apparently only have my opinions of what "may or may not be" correct completely miss my point that there are no more reasons to believe that Courtney Love had anything to do with Kurt's death, suicide or murder, than O.J. Simpson did. The point of this document is to open people's eyes that contrary to what many people think, Tom Grant does NOT give sufficient evidence of a murder having taken place.
Another observation of mine from the beginning has been that Tom Grant has said things that may or may not have been true, and then has BUILT on what he's just said, and this has always influenced his readers to think that what he's just said is in fact true, when really there had NEVER BEEN any proof of it's validity, which means that as he keeps building and building on a certain so-called "fact," the whole thing STILL has no more validity than it did in the first place!

This is something which his readers must understand. For instance, when he comes out and says that Kurt & Courtney were going to get a divorce. I have seen, and continue to see this brought up OVER AND OVER again in the many Nirvana discussion forums on the Internet as a "motive" of Courtney's to have Kurt killed, but NO ONE in ANY public source ANYWHERE has EVER said anything like that before. Yet Grant builds and builds on this indeed as a "motive" for Courtney. Most people seem to forget that ONLY Grant has said that they were getting to this brutal divorce; no one else has said a thing about that; at least, not publically. Unless Grant gets a reputable source, especially including the actual divorce papers or some similar record, this is nothing.

Things have changed, and the cloud of suspicion on my part has lifted. The people who knew Kurt & Courtney best, those who are talking anyway, all say that Kurt was very much unhappy with Courtney and planning to divorce her; it is said that a rewritten yet unsigned copy of his will has Courtney taken out of it, and that he had begun divorce preceedings. Tom Grant has Rosemary Carroll talking about this on tape, yet he cannot make these tapes or the documents public outside of court.

The Divorce
To continue what I was just saying, the divorce is a crucial part of the murder theory. Despite the fact that Kurt and Courtney each signed a prenuptial agreement upon Courtney's own request, if it is found that a divorce was indeed in the works, then that definitely give Courtney a lot of motive. (Although as to whether or not she COULD or WOULD arrange to have Kurt killed because of it, especially when she had plenty of money and fame of her own, that's another thing altogether.)
It seems that as far as the major media goes, Kurt & Courtney were very much in love and had a great marriage, past Kurt's heroin-related (and otherwise) mood swings. However, a reliable source of mine has brought to my attention that her own investigating found that to many people around, it was a known fact that Kurt was divorcing Courtney and planning his life without her. Only time will tell if anything can come from this. As it stands, there's not a lot of proof that anything was going on.

A while ago people had been talking about when Kurt talked about possible divorce from Courtney. This was in his last Rolling Stone interview. This is what was said (in complete context):


DAVID FRICKE: In "Serve the Servants," you sing, "I tried hard to have a father/But instead I had a dad." Are you concerned about making the same mistakes as a father that might have been made when you were growing up?

KURT COBAIN: No. I'm not worried about that at all. My father and I are completely different people. I know that I'm capable of showing a lot more affection than my dad was. Even if Courtney and I were to get divorced, I would never allow us to be in a situation where there are bad vibes between us in front of her. That kind of stuff can screw up a kid, but the reason those things happen is because the parents are not very bright.

End quote. There's nothing to say that he's talking about the possibility of getting divorced from his wife; he appears merely to be talking hypothetically about how he would handle getting into the situation that his parents did, about what he would do differently for his daughter than what they did for their son. Is this really such a clue of a divorce to come?

[HippieChild]

One part of the divorce confusion that I know is true is that Courtney as well as some of Kurt's friends got together for an intervention, threatening that they would ALL leave Kurt if he would not get himself cleaned up off of the drugs. This had nothing to do with any brutal divorce, but incentive to get the man that they all loved off of the d**n drugs.

(Actually, the participants in the intervention were Courtney, Cali the nanny --who Grant believes had a major role in Kurt's murder--, Dylan, Krist, John Silva, and Janet Billig of Gold Mountain. The first three were themselves heroin addicts.)

As for the legal divorce papers, I know that it would not be practical for Grant's case to actually show us this evidence, but the problem that I see is that he's never even said that he has such papers, or that they even exist. Now, I've heard some stories from a reliable source of mine that apparently a lot of people around the streets 'knew' that Kurt Cobain was planning to leave Courtney; that he'd filed for divorce and was planning his future without her. This, however, has not been proven, and should not be treated as any definite evidence. Just food for though.

Absence Of Witnesses
One thing that Tom Grant's investigation seriously lacks is the existence of witnesses. And for the two specific witnesses that are named, and whose testimony we are shown summaries of, we have serious problems. For instance, at one point Mr. Grant does go on with a lot of damaging information supposedly taken straight from Kurt & Courtney's entertainment lawyer, Rosemary Carrol, talking about numerous occasions when he & Ms. Carrol met here and there, her giving him more and more information about how she didn't know Kurt Cobain to be suicidal, and that she had very strong suspicions about Courtney being involved in Kurt's death, etc... But then it seems that when he began to speak out he received a letter from Carrol's law firm threatening legal action if he continues to put such outrageous words in her mouth.
Some of Tom Grant's most important evidence is based on what other people have supposedly said, though no one has gone out on his or her merit to say anything for himself/herself. The investigation is heavilly based on pretty much anonymous witnesses, and here, one of his most important witnesses is pretty much saying that he's lying about the whole thing, and threatens to sue if he continues to spread the vicious lies.

Likewise, Grant gives a lot of damaging information which has supposedly come from Cobain's good friend Dylan Carlson. Carlson is said to have thought Grant also sneaks in that Carlson is a junkie, as was Kurt Cobain, but then quickly says, "But he's very intelligent!" In Tom Grant's Update #4, Dylan Carlson is said to have thought that Kurt was not the least bit suicidal, and we know that they were together just before the rehab center came into the picture. At first glance, this can be seen as being damaging testimony for the "suicide" story. However, on the contrary, this is not the case when dealing with someone like Kurt Cobain. When a given person who you knew was once quite unhappy and depressed, even suicidal, when a person like this suddenly goes through a certain "calm" period, a time of tranquillity, this is known as being a serious warning sign of suicide to come. Any specialist will tell you this, don't just take my word for it if you wish not to.


Tom Grant in his Update #4 said, "Carlson said Nirvana's management and Cobain's wife, Courtney Love, had pushed the musician to enter drug treatment. He said Cobain was apprehensive, but did not seem despondent.

"'Kurt was facing lots of pretty heavy things, but he was actually pretty upbeat,' Carlson said. 'He was prepared to deal with things facing him.'"


The way that I understand it, the management (or record company, or whoever "they" were...) were the ones who pushed him to the rehab center. They were very worried about him. (More like they were worried about lack of future Nirvana revenue...) Besides the fact that Courtney said it was against her wishes and that she was forced not to come into contact with him, I've even gotten second hand information about what the mood around Geffen was like during Kurt's last few months. See that information in the "Friends Also Knew the Truth" section, coming up very soon.

It wasn't against Courtney's wishes, she threatened taking Frances away from him unless he went to rehab. This was 3/25/94. On the 28th she flew to L.A. to deal with the upcoming release of her album. The night of March 30th Kurt flew to L.A. for rehab.

Also to question the belief that Kurt went to rehab willingly, why then did he end up escaping from the Recovery Center? He left by his own free will when he wanted to; he certainly wasn't kidnapped! Kurt took a taxi to the airport, where he used his credit car to buy a $478 ticket back to Seattle. He called ahead for his limo service to pick him up in Seattle; his driver was Linda Walker. She dropped him off at home. As Cali told the police later on, he and Kurt spoke for a while late that night/early that morning. Later he said that he never saw Kurt, and we were all told that no one saw Kurt between the time he left rehab and turned up dead.
Ugly (False) Rumors Alive In The Grant Reports

Something that I find somewhat humorous is the way that Grant repeats a pretty popular rumor that's been going around the 'Net, regarding the Cobains' Lexus. The rumor states that Courtney bought this big expensive Lexus, trying to be a big bad-ass show-off with her money, but that "good wholesome" Kurt got mad and made her return it, because perfect Kurt would never have wanted to have made such a purchase. The purpose of this rumor has been to make Courtney look really bad, of course, especially compared to sweet, nice Kurt. (Picture: halo over Kurt's head, pitchfork in Courtney's hand.) Perhaps he's already deleted the blunder from his report. Perhaps not.

As for the story...no no no... The authorized biography of Nirvana called _Come As You Are_ clearly tells the story of when KURT AND COURTNEY went out to buy the Lexus, TOGETHER. As can be read in the collection of e-mails from Courtney at this site, here's an excerpt from her regarding the whole thing, which, again, is talked about in Come As You Are: "Oh BTW, the Lexus? Puhleese! We went out one day and bought a really spendy black car--drove it around, got totally stared at and felt mortified like we were sellouts- so we returned it within 18 hours of buying it. Ok? whoopy." (I edited that a bit to make it easier to read, but all of her notes in the other file are all put up there exactly as they were sent to me.)

Mother Knows Best
An important factor of Grant's story is that he makes everything to sound as if Kurt REALLY WAS NOT so suicidal, and Courtney was the one who made everything out to look like he was, so that apparently people wouldn't be surprised when he'd be "found" of an "apparent" suicide. BUT, the way I understand it, EVERYONE who came in contact (family, roadies, the band members themselves, etc.) with Kurt Cobain talked about how bad things really were. Especially after Kurt's body was found. He was a suicidal man; he'd been a suicidal man on and off for years. That's the raw truth. Face it. Kurt's own mother told the authorities that she feared her son would not be found alive, that he would have already killed himself. (Actually, all she spoke about was joining "that stupid club" of rock stars who died drug-related deaths...I don't believe she ever really said anything about fearing he would kill himself.) This was to the authority's faces, after Kurt's body had been found. (I wanted to make that clear since it is questioned whether or not her missing persons report over the phone was indeed made by her.) Everyone remembers what she said about how she told him not to join "that stupid club." His MOTHER talked to him and knew that he was messed up, probably very suicidal. HIS MOTHER. If anyone wants to continue using the "fact" that Courtney "conveniently" told people that she felt her husband would be found dead, then he might as well name Kurt Cobain's mother, Ms. Wendy O'Connor, as an accomplice. (According to Grant, Courtney personally told him that she had filed a missing person's report in O'Connor's name. I now believe him to be an honest man; you may make up your own mind for yourself.)
Also about Ms. O'Connor, she certainly has no problem supporting Courtney, so why should Kurt's fans? According to MTV News, Ms. O'Connor attended the 1995 MTV Video Music Awards with Frances. Her son sure wasn't there to receive any awards or to perform, so she was obviously there to support her daughter-in-law. I'm sure that if she thought her daughter-in-law had her son MURDERED, she probably wouldn't have attended. But hey, that's just my opinion... Also, more recently, in Rolling Stone's (Issue 753, 2/6/97) Random Notes section is a picture of Courtney Love holding hands with her mother-in-law, and Wendy looks VERY happy; she hardly looks like she thinks that Courtney had her son killed, does it? The caption reads: "Golden Globe Best-Actress nominee Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain's ma, Wendy O'Connor, bond at the Los Angeles premiere of The People vs. Larry Flynt.


Friends Also Knew The Truth
Not only was Kurt's family deeply concerned about his well-being, but his friends were as well. Feedback from a reader:

[HippieChild]

Michael Stipe said he was trying to talk Kurt out of the state he was in and get him involved in a project "So he wouldn't hurt himself or kill himself." He also said that after Kurt disappeared they were hoping for the best but expecting the worst. "We thought it was going to be an overdose." A lot of people thought it would be an overdose.

Read almost any interview with Michael Stipe from that time period, when the interviewers kept bringing the topic up. Grant tries to say that Kurt wasn't suicidal...is he kidding? My God, everyone knew he was! I've spoken to people around him during the last tour, and they say that Kurt was such a moody not a very nice person at that time. More feedback from another reader:

--re: was Kurt suicidal around the date of his death?
David-- I have several friends involved in the record biz & show biz in L.A., and according to all of them, it was very well known that this guy was in major trouble.
One of my friends works at Geffen, and I talked to her shortly after he died, and she said that Kurt was a total mess in the few months before he died-- she said they were all just waiting to hear the news that he had finally killed himself-- it was a matter of "when" not "if" anymore. She said he'd been okay for awhile, but then got back on heroin and was worse than ever. She said there was alot of agonizing within Geffen re: how to deal with this & David Geffen himself was determined to lie about it to the press and to protect Kurt as long as Kurt wanted. And that when Kurt did die, Geffen himself was heartbroken and feels so guilty, and so does the rest of the company b/c they all protected Kurt esp. with the Rome thing. My friend said it was common knowledge about it being a suicide attempt and that he left a note, but they all kept quiet. She said the mood there for the next 6 weeks was awful- everyone was just waiting for the guy to die, but nobody discussed out loud how to handle it and they all expected it to be an o.d. and they'd have to again pretend that it was accidental and that the guy didn't seem suicidal. She said kurt was just constantly telling Geffen and Courtney and others that he was trying so hard to kill himself, but then he'd beg them not to let it get out to the public. So everyone was terrified and panicky, but trying to act otherwise. And then he shot himself- which was even worse than an o.d., b/c the company and everyone had to suddenly admit that the guy died on purpose...

[HippieChild]

Anyway, this context explains Kurt's mother's quote about the stupid club. My friend said that everyone was sure he was dead after his escape. She said it was just a matter of waiting for the body to be found.
Look for this person's complete e-mail to me on the other page with other peoples' opinions.


ROME
Tom Grant quotes Courtney quoting the Kurt from the Rome note, and he says that he feels that Kurt's is a false quote. Either way, the quote says roughly how Dr. Baker says that must choose from life and death, and [I'm] choosing death. (Dr. Baker is a doctor whom Kurt saw when the band was in Australia. I'm told that Dr. Baker is a psychiatrist.) Grant asks in his report, "What does this mean?" He then continues about how he feels that the doctor was telling him that if he doesn't get off of the drugs, it will kill him. Nowhere does Tom Grant acknowledge the chronic stomach pains with which Kurt had suffered during the last several years of his life. The REASON why he was on the drug in the first place. Of course, I don't see why Grant would think much about it if he truly believes that the quote is indeed false... Either way, assuming that the quote is real, I find Grant's belief unlikely. (And, again, ignorant, as he doesn't seem to fully appreciate the hell that Cobain was living with inside of him.) A source of mine, wishing to remain anonymous, has this to say: "The 'choose life or death' thing just sounds like a variation on the old shrink saw, 'I can't help you change unless you want to change', worded in a way appropriate to a person whose psychological problems were severe enough to kill him, one way or another." (This person has a terrific report of her own on why Grant shouldn't be believed, right here on my page. If you haven't read it yet, be sure that you do some time.)

Explosive Matters
Tom Grant talks about how Kurt Cobain bought that gun because he was supposedly afraid for his life that someone would try to kill him because he didn't want to do the Lollapalooza tour. Are we to believe that Kurt feared Perry Farrel, or someone working under him, was going after his life because he didn't want to perform at the festival?
On the other hand, if it is in fact true that Kurt Cobain was so concerned about this, then that shows that he may have been so paranoid that he indeed may have killed himself worrying about such a thing.

On numerous occasions the police were called to the home of Kurt Cobain & Courtney Love-Cobain due to domestic disturbance. It is well documented in the Seattle Police Department's files. Even the POLICE agreed that Kurt Cobain WAS A SUICIDAL man, and therefore confiscated his collection of guns. Again and again. Because he would have killed himself. That was their opinion. Every time. If Courtney Love wanted her husband dead, then why wouldn't she just let him do it himself? I think the fact that she called the police on numerous occasions TO HAVE THE GUNS TAKEN AWAY from him proves that she sorta didn't want her husband dead... Does anyone else agree? Grant talks about facts...well, here are your facts, and taken from these facts one can easily assume that she loved her husband and didn't want him dead.

The police report says that Courtney said in her 911 call that Kurt had threatened to kill himself. When the police arrived, Kurt denied this, and Courtney admitted that he did not say that and that she had lied. After the police confisgated his guns and, for some reason, his prescribed stomach medication, Kurt took off. If the police really did believe that Kurt would seriously try to harm himself, it seems unlikely that this would have happened this way.

Grant also claims that Kurt bought the gun so that it would be there when he would return from rehab, and then he went to rehab. As I've already said, it's been my understanding that going to rehab was a quick decision by OTHER people. When did he have time to go buy a gun, and since when did he prance all by himself over to the rehab center?

I now know that this last paragraph is full of ignorance and is based on complete b.s. Five days passed between the intervention and when Kurt went with Dylan to buy a gun, and later took a taxi to the airport to go to rehab.


The Note
Tom Grant goes on and on about how the suicide note makes little sense as a "suicide" note, but plenty of sense as a "retirement" note. This is a common belief among those who believe that Kurt Cobain was murdered. Folks, music was Kurt Cobain's life. ever since he first started writing and playing music, that's all he cared about. He didn't like doing anything else, and his money from being in Nirvana only would have gone so far; especially since he had a kid to look after and provide for. Therefore, it is not very realistic that he would have given up making music; what else would he have done with his life? In essence, by people saying that in the infamous note Kurt intended to explain why he was leaving music, these people ARE saying that Kurt Cobain was explaining why he was to have kill himself. Simply put, there's nothing else that he would have wanted to do with is life.
On the other hand, when one tries to logically picture Kurt deciding to leave music, one must wonder why he would bother writing any note in the first place. Kurt's personality was more along the lines of, "I'm sick of music, I'm leaving this crappy business, and the hell with you if you don't like it."

Now that I accept that Kurt Cobain was more likely than not murdered, and honestly reading the 'note' in that frame of mind, it's not so hard to read it as something other than a suicide note. I think that the style of it's tone is rather comparable to that of the Incesticide liner notes, and I don't think that any of us have read those notes with a depressed, bummed out voice, but rather a light, often tongue-in-cheek tone. It's also possible that the note, if seriously a "retirement" note (which could have meant the retirement from the big music industry, but not necesarilly music altogether), that it could have been a rough draft, not the finished product. But, of course, this is something that everyone must make out for themselves...

Another part about the note is the claim that the last part is not Kurt Cobain's handwriting. Local Seattle "Kurt Cobain was murdered!" investigator/journalist Richard Lee, with his public access show in Seattle every week, and who is known to also personally despise Tom Grant, says differently. Despite the fact that he also believes that Kurt Cobain was murdered, he admits that the Seattle Police Department consulted with 3 local handwriting examiners to authenticate the note. They all backed the Seattle Police Department saying that it was indeed Cobain's handwriting. Lee's reason for telling us this is that none will discuss their methods of coming to this conclusion. Nevertheless, all three of these experts concluded that Kurt Cobain wrote the entire note, and that it was NOT forged. The only reason why people think that the last part of the letter was written by someone else is because it is written larger, and just barely a different style of handwriting. Please keep in mind that it's quite probable that he added the last part at a later time, after he had shot up a lot of heroin (perhaps a lot more of heroin) which would have understandably greatly affected his motor skills, explaining the semi-different appearance. (I was fishing for possibilities with the motor skills remark...I really have no idea if it's a reasonable explanation for the differences in the handwriting.

[HippieChild]

This topic was also addressed on NBC's Unsolved Mysteries on February 7, 1997. The opinions of three experts were aired on the program. One compared the note with handwritten lyrics by Kurt Cobain, and did say that the last four lines were questionable. Another expert, from Oxford University, said that both the first and last four lines were questionable, but says that the copy of the note that he was looking at was not good enough to say for sure. (It's best to examine the original written document; photocopies aren't the best medium to study these things.) The last source was from the Washington crime lab, and says that the entire note was written by Kurt.


The Credit Card
The missing credit card. Somehow this is also an important piece of evidence supporting the murder theory. Sure, it can sound rather odd, at first. The May 11 edition of the Seattle Times reported that attempted charges on Kurt Cobain's Seafirst Mastercard included charges of $2,500, $5,000, $1,517.56, and others, with the latest charge attempt occurring at 1:35am on April 8th. But once you think about it, there are pretty reasonable explanations for it. Think about his situation. He had just literally gone AWOL from the Exodus Treatment Center. He was literally on the run, quite possibly suffering from heroin withdrawal. This is not the place to go into great detail about that, but if you want to know what's involved with that, look it up. It is a VERY bad thing to go through. So he was probably suffering with heroin withdrawal and needed to get more very quickly, both because he was suffering from the withdrawal, and because he needed temporary relief from his excruciating stomach pains. When he finally got to his dealer (whether or not it was his usual source), he had no cash on him, but he had his card. "Take my card!" This is especially plausible if he was already planning on killing himself.
The credit charge attempts stopped after the body was found; yeah, if you're using someone else's card, once he is found dead and everyone knows it, you usually stop using the card, right? If Kurt didn't give it away prior to it being cancelled, possibly when he tried to use it and it didn't work, then he just threw it away, only for someone else to find it and try to use it, and the cycle possibly repeated itself several times. It doesn't make a lot of sense for the SAME person to have kept using it if it didn't work in the first place.

Also on the credit card, there are rumors that Courtney's effort to cancel Kurt's missing credit card (while he was still missing) to help find him actually hurt chances of finding him, as then attempts to use the card would not be recorded. This helps support the rumor that she was trying to hide something, but also according to Richard Lee, Seafirst's fraud prevention department reported that this is not so, that the location of attempted charges would still be recorded. Therefore, this is evidence that Courtney was sincerely trying to find Kurt. He could no longer use the card to, say, buy a plane or train ticket to some remote area, but any attempts would be recorded, which should have helped to find him, hopefully safe.


The Stool
Another part of Grant's "evidence" regards whether or not Kurt was barricaded inside of the greenhouse above the garage when he died. Grant claims that he was not, and a lot of his supporters like to use this as some sort of evidence. Even if this is true...so? That sure doesn't prove or even mean that someone else was in the room after he died.

[HippieChild]

The Driver's License
On a similar note, Grant focuses on Cobain's driver's license, saying that it was "NOT" out and open for identification as the police have us believe. Again, so? *IF* this is indeed true...IF it's true, how does that prove that he didn't leave his wallet out for identification? And besides, it WAS his house anyway, wasn't it?

Eeny meeny miny moe;
to which side shall my trust go?
From the beginning of the online debates of this matter, I've failed to understand the logic behind Tom Grant's die-hard believers placing all of their trust into what he said when little was said to give him a lot of credit at the time; and therefore at the same time, these people dismissed anything that Courtney Love has ever said, and would ever say. Granted, Courtney Love is hardly Mother Theresa, and I am not calling Tom Grant the liar that I once did, but this was just an interesting observation of mine.

I still hold these beliefs of the early online existence of Grant's investigation, but no longer. The evidence and testimony has come out supporting what he has been saying for so long.


Probable Series Of Events
Tom Grant asks what "PROOF" anyone has that the deadly bullet was self-inflicted. Well, what "PROOF" does Tom Grant have that the bullet wasn't? Well, as meaningless as some of you may see this, here's my idea of what happened during Kurt Cobain's final days: Kurt Cobain escaped from Exodus Recovery Center in Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles--a rehab center to get him off of heroin. People who knew Kurt Cobain well feared for his life before he went into rehab, when he went into rehab, and after he escaped from rehab. Since Kurt Cobain was in rehab he obviously was taken off of his heroin. A known effect of heroin withdrawal is severe depression, and this is IN ADDITION to whatever depression he already had; Kurt Cobain was known to be clinically depressed, and Kurt's family has a very interesting history of a few relatives killing themselves. I'm no specialist in the field of genetics, but...I just find that pretty interesting. Kurt Cobain had severe chronic pains in his stomach were now going unmedicated with the lack of heroin, which he had been counting on for the past few years to help numb his pain, after all else failed. So therefore, he was messed up to begin with, he escaped from the rehab center, this caused an even more serious depression, and with the physical pains in his stomach that wouldn't end, he drastically questioned the nature of his life.
He decided it was ready to end. He wrote a note explaining his decision from more of a business-like point-of-view. A note to his fans. Not those who would later pick his wife as the one who caused Kurt's death one way or another because they can't handle the truth about their 'hero', but his fans. He also wrote separate notations to his wife and to his daughter. Notes that, quite frankly, were not intended for us to read the contents of. He then killed himself.

There's not a lot of mystery here. It's quite simple, it's quite sad, it's quite harsh, it's quite real. It's quite simple.

It's not quite so simple. People who saw him in rehab said that he was in amazingly good spirits. One told Rolling Stone, "I was ready to see him look like nuts and depressed but he looked so f**king great." And in the summer of '93, Kurt's stomach problems were diagnosed as being due to a pinched nerve as caused by his mild scoliosis, and he was put on medication. He referred to this as "a miracle." Of course, his "suicide note" included a reference to his "burning, nauseous stomach." Perhaps this was sarcasm, perhaps not. It's up to you...

Who Is Courtney Love?
Tom Grant's Update #4, dated July 17, 1995, contains some frequently asked questions. When he starts talking about Courtney Love, he starts making her out to have the power of a Mafia boss. We're just talking about a musician! A very strong musician, who quite possibly would herself be dead right now if she wasn't so strong. He uses this quote against her: "In my world people are pretty scared of me,...so they don't f**k with me." Yeah? So? Isn't there a bit of a possibility that this was perhaps taken out of context? She was quite possibly referring to business people who like to screw unknowing performers over often, or something equally as harmless. I'm not saying that she is, but she could have been. It's a little hard to say, since that's all of the quote that we're given. Wouldn't you expect Madonna to say something like this as well? If you'd heard her say this, would you fear that maybe she was a murderer? Probably not. Or maybe so, who knows...
I'm not denying that Courtney has made herself into a pregnant dog. Like I said, I've heard stories. She acknowledges her pregnant dogy attributes. I can be an not a very nice person at times. Quite possibly, you can as well. Sure doesn't make either of us a murderer! But getting back to Ms. Love, I don't know her personally. I've exchanged some e-mail with her, but that was a while back, and don't know her personally; and I don't claim to. I haven't made my mind up about her based on the fact that she yells at people first and asks questions later. What does it matter to me? The fact that she can be a pregnant dog at times is NO reason to think that she had her husband murdered. ("...the reason her character has been so severely attacked is because she chooses not to function the way the white corporate man insists." Kurt Cobain, regarding his wife, Courtney Love.) ,

"Coma In Roma"
Here's an excerpt from a Seattle Post-Intelligencer article from 4/15/94, to which Grant replies, "INCREDIBLE!": "Carlson said he had not known of any suicide attempts and had not been told that Cobain's drug induced coma in Rome, Italy, on March 4 might have been intentional, as has been confirmed recently by Love."
Grant then brings up that it wasn't known as a suicide attempt until after the suicide. Well, one of the things that I thought about after I had learned April 8th what had happened, and I KNOW that I am not alone, was that it looked like he wasn't as STUPID in Rome as it seemed. (Taking champagne with drugs, that is.) In fact, here are Kurt Cobain's own words on this matter, as found in the previously mentioned biography of the band, _Come As You Are_, as was posted by someone to the alt.music.nirvana newsgroup in 6/96:

"[Sid Vicious, Tim Buckley, Janis Joplin, etc.] did every drug in the book all at once. They get drunk and then they get high and then they die. I never drank-I learned that from junkies. You just don't mix alcohol and heroin at all or you'll die. It cuts down on respiratory twice as much. You pass out when you're drunk and you wake up and get high and there's no way you're going to survive that. Everyone I know of who's OD'd has gotten drunk. And it's been late at night, too." -Kurt
Now, does this sound like someone who would later take around fifty Rohypnol doses and champagne at night on accident?
Absolutely not.
It all seemed pretty obvious to me right away that he had tried to end it in Rome, but was unsuccessful, and I didn't need Courtney Love, or anyone else, to tell me that that's what happened in Rome. I know that lots of people thought that it was suspicious even before his body was found dead a month later. Everybody naturally wanted to keep everything quiet. Then he ended up finally taking care of it after he escaped from the Exodus Center. What's so hard to believe? His mother is on record as saying that she feared he would not be found alive. Close friends are on record as saying that they feared he would not be found alive, that he would have taken his own life. His mom said that on that mysterious and questioned phone call, _as well as_ in person to the authorities after her son's body had been found. ("That stupid club." Joplin, Hendrix, Morrison...now Cobain, and more recently, Hoon.)

The rumors of fifty pills having been pumped from Kurt's stomach originated at Courtney. Kurt's doctor in Rome, Dr. Osvaldo Galletta, denies that fifty pills were pumped from his stomach. For what it's worth, he also says that the OD looked like an accident, and not a suicide attempt, saying that they can 'usually' tell a suicide attempt.
As for how Kurt ended up OD'ing "by accident" on the Rohypnol, it is my theory that Courtney slipped some 'ruphies' (known as the "Date Rape Drug") in Kurt's champaign, hoping to build a recent suicide-attempt history for Kurt, building up to the main event. Grant theorizes that perhaps Courtney realized that Kurt didn't ingest enough to kill him, so she then decided to change plans and play 'hero,' saving his life by calling the paramedics.

[HippieChild]

Is Dylan Carlson capable of giving such strong testimony about what Kurt Cobain's mindset was like during his last days? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, of course. It's just that Grant admits in his report that Carlson is a heroin addict. It's kind of hard to take such serious and important testimony from an addict.

And as was mentioned earlier, let's not forget Michael Stipe, who was on the phone constantly (okay, so that's an exaggerated term) with Kurt Cobain during his last months. He was very worried about Kurt.

The Seattle Police Department
In Update #4, Tom Grant answers the question asking what motive the police department would have for covering up a sloppy investigation. He gives a short answer, and then a long answer. The short answer is about city politics and potential lawsuits. The long answer briefly covers four "copycat" suicides from around the world, including Turkey, Australia, and the United States. As far as I remember, the Cobain case was ruled an *apparent* suicide; not simply a suicide.
"Kurt's death would have been a tragic and sad loss to his fans, but his so called 'suicide' caused a short circuit. It didn't make sense!!"
Now, this I take very seriously. I *KNOW* that I am *NOT* alone when I say that it made *PERFECT* sense when A LOT of us had learned what had happened, and if Tom Grant tries to claim that I, or any of the rest of Kurt Cobain's real fans, are not a "true fan," he'd be VERY mistaken. I am unable to comprehend how someone who'd been following Kurt Cobain's life for any period of time could possibly be surprised that he'd killed himself, and doubt that he would have ever done such a thing. Whether or not this case is later proven to be a murder, the warning signs were still there. (In the media, anyway.) Is it really so shocking? Now, if this was someone along the lines of Michael BOLTON, that would be a bit different. But we're not talking about Michael Bolton, we are talking about Kurt Cobain. Is his music really so happy? Was he really such a happy man? Sure, he really loved his wife and his daughter, and had some fun here and there, but we're talking about a man was abused by his peers in school, who had *several* medical problems that Tom Grant does NOT address (at least not the last time I checked), and who was homeless during part of his teenage years. Ever listen to the song "Something In the Way"? It is autobiographical. Kurt Cobain did indeed live under bridges in Seattle for some time, even during the Winter!

[HippieChild]

We are talking about a man who had gotten these HORRIBLE and UNBEARABLE stomach pains during his last several years, which landed him in the hospital on numerous occasions because he couldn't eat. The doctors there couldn't even help him much. They couldn't diagnose it.

We're talking about a man who was suffering from drug problems. While I believe completely that the heroin's main purpose was to help numb the pains in his stomach (look it up, it is the perfect drug for such a purpose), I must admit that he got hooked on drugs as a teenager.

We're talking about a man who had been known to basically be really unhappy for a long time. As he even says in his 'note,' he had generally hated people since the age of 7. (And as a side-note, this sounds like an extremely odd thing to write in a retirement note, doesn't it?) And his unhappiness had not gone away into his adulthood. Just listen to his music! Grant tries his best to say that the music had very little to do with what he really felt...HUH?! That is an insult to Kurt Cobain if I ever saw one. I'm not even going to start writing a d**n essay on the type of music that he wrote. That's not what the purpose of this document is for. All I'll say is that Grant resorts to saying, "Get over it!" to people who LISTEN to Kurt Cobain's lyrics, and UNDERSTAND THEM as well. But it's not even just the lyrics. It is his music as a whole. It is my music-loving opinion that lyrics of a song generally only have about half of the meaning. Non-English-speaking people have been touched by Kurt's music just as much as people who can understand what he literally says in his songs. Mood in a song is VERY important, ESPECIALLY in Kurt Cobain's case. And I say again, that is SUCH an insult to Kurt Cobain, saying that his music was not representative of his own feelings and personality. His music WAS his feelings & personality. As I said before, his music was his life.

Back to what I was saying, PLENTY of people were NOT surprised when he had killed himself. Don't give me this "didn't make sense" *crap*, Mr. Grant. It made absolute sense to those who paid attention to him. You didn't give a d**n about him until Courtney Love hired you to find him, which you did not, regardless of the fact that he was in the very house you were searching. (More or less.)

Direct Response To Tom Grant
One thing that Grant covers in his Update #5 is how much Kurt loved his daughter, and how much it hurt him to think that she'd grow up hearing about how her parents were a couple of junkies. So Grant says that this is one reason to believe that he would not have killed himself.
Mr. Grant obviously knows very little about extreme depression, and how extreme it can really be. Not to mention Kurt's physical ailments. It's not all as black and white as that. You can't always just "choose" that, "Hey, I've gotta stay for this person's sake..." It doesn't work that way.

Once again, the only person from around Kurt near the end who is saying that Kurt WAS depressed is Courtney Love, the prime suspect in the murder theory.

Grant quotes this excerpt from People Magazine regarding the Rome incident: "Ironically, the incident occurred at a time when Cobain seemed to be more at peace with himself than he had been in years."

First of all, as has been said already, this is often a very serious warning (when dealing with a moody, depressed, self-loathing person) that suicide may not be far away. (But that doesn't mean that every happy person is suicidal, obviously.)

Quoted from Grant regarding supposed "inconsistencies":

Here are just a few:


(the way he was 'killed')
The combination of a large dose of drugs, IN ADDITION to the shotgun blast. (I've been told by experienced homicide investigators, this is highly unusual, inconsistent. It would normally be done with one or the other... not both).
I too have consulted some people about this, and they say that it is NOT unusual at all. I don't see what sounds so odd about it anyway. He was thinking irrationally because he was getting ready to do something VERY big. And the heroin didn't help...he just wanted to end it. A source of mine has this to say on the matter: "Well, this may be true -- for _homicides_ (which raises the question of why someone wanting to kill Kurt would go to all the trouble and risk of shooting him, when they could have just slipped him an OD and be virtually assured of getting away scot-free...but that's another subject)... I have always heard it was extremely common for suicides -- especially young men who shoot themselves -- to be loaded up on their drug(s) of choice when they do themselves in."
Also, as another source of mine pointed out, people in that situation probably wouldn't go through with shooting themselves if not high anyway. Kurt Cobain had a large heroin habit and was high at the time of his death. Had he not been high, he probably wouldn't have gone through with shooting himself that way anyway. Of course, that's pure speculation. Nevertheless...

(bullets in the gun)
THREE rounds loaded into the weapon.

If, as Grant claims, Kurt was really paranoid about Lollapalooza people "out to get 'im", then that's perhaps why it was loaded. Of course, it's also known that Kurt wanted to protect his family and himself in general. For whatever specific reason he bought the gun, it means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING having to do with his last few days alive, when the gun was there in his house, ready to "get it over with". Why is it relevant how many rounds were in the gun? For whatever reason that Kurt Cobain acquired the gun (if he was indeed paranoid about Lollapalooza or he just got the gun to help protect his family, or whatever else...), he loaded it before his trip to the Exodus Recovery Center, and it was then ready to be shot when he made his way back home again.
(no legible fingerprints on the gun)
No legible fingerprints on the shotgun.
Several good explanations for this were given on Unsolved Mysteries. For one thing, assuming that Kurt Cobain shot himself with it, keeping in mind the loss of a grip on the gun after his life ceased to exist, the mere firing of the gun probably simply caused his own hands to smear his own fingerprints.
If Kurt Cobain was murdered, why wouldn't the murderer have wiped off his or her prints and then make sure to put Kurt's hands all over it? The awareness of the illegible fingerprints is used as evidence that the supposed 'murderer' wiped off his or her prints, so why not put Kurt's on there?

For reference, the gun used was a Remington M-11 20 Gauge, Semi-automatic, according to Tom Grant.

Also, while I can't comment much on this, I know that the medical examiner reported that Kurt had [gun powder] burn marks on his hands which were typical to those which are made after firing a gun the way he did, backwards, to his head. There's your physical evidence--of suicide.

Actually, this was noted in the initial police report from the crime scene, before any tests were due to show any such powder residue. It is actually unclear what the police meant by there being "marks on his hands that are consistant of firing this weapon." It obviously wasn't powder residue, which a crime lab would have been needed for.
(the kind of note left)

A lengthy note TO HIS FANS with no evidence that it was a suicide note... (Any way you read it, it was certainly not typical of a suicide note).
The key word here is 'typical'. There was no more evidence of it being a "retirement" note than there was of it being a "suicide" note. If you read it as a suicide note, does it really not make sense? I think it does; many people think that it does. Picture Kurt Cobain alone in that room, high on heroin, "freaked out" as a source of mine put it, ready to kill himself. It makes sense. The theory that Cobain was going to run off and apparently live on roots and berries in the woods is more ridiculous than anything else. "Retirement note." Please. Kurt Cobain would have been recognized wherever he would have gone. That would not have been a rational or realistic thing for anyone to do. Suicide, however, is quite common among people, young and old, rich and poor.
Another note left, BUT KEPT IN SECRET! (Again... nothing suicidal, but it DID say he was LEAVING COURTNEY!)
Provide the note for inspection, Mr. Grant, and gain the credibility. Grant has a lot of convincing evidence that points towards foul play in the death of Kurt Cobain, but there is no evidence of this evidence existing. You have this other note, the supposed divorce, and also claims that Courtney suspected that Kurt was cheating on her. (Personally I find it hard to believe that Kurt would have done such a thing, and I find it unlikely that Courtney would have thought such a thing too. Kurt?!)

[HippieChild]

(no note to his mom or daughter)
No explanation or personal note to his mother.
Kurt had already talked to his mother. His mother knew what was going on. His mother already knew that he would most likely kill himself. His mother already knew the whole story. His mother didn't need to be told anything new. Perhaps Kurt was too ashamed to say anything else. It's all speculation, but that's really all that we have to go on.
Most people don't leave ANY notes at all, but they still die by their own hands. Kurt's note was to everyone, explaining to *everyone* why he was doing what he did. Yes, he had a hell of a lot more fans than family & personal friends, which is why it seemed mostly to the fans.

No personal note of explanation left to his baby daughter, Frances, to help her understand all this as she gets older. The man was getting ready to put a bullet in his head; he could have written a note to everyone he knew, but there wasn't the time. He did, at least, say goodbye to her at the end of the note. (Though, granted, it is questioned whether or not that's his handwriting; hasn't been proven either way.)
(suicidal tendencies)
Substantial wealth, a child with a future, and yet according to the Cobain's attorney, Kurt died without even finishing the will he'd been working on.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand the state of mind that Kurt must have been in when this was all going down. You just don't think so rationally about these things when you're in that state of mind. Rationality is being sought where it should not be expected. Read up on suicidal tendencies, Mr. Grant.
("sex, lies, and videotape")
Lies, contradictions, and phony planted stories in the press.
My place in this online debate remains being a skeptic of the murder theory. In my opinion, this means nothing without any proof, which would include testimony of other people who can verify this. Until then, this is nothing.
(a wife who was already rich)
A wife with obvious financial motive for suicide rather than divorce.
This is what I meant earlier by Grant building and building on questionable evidence that has not been verified. But as for Courtnely Love's apparent quest for money, I think that it's important to note that she had a LOT of her own money before the two even met. In fact, Hole's minor-label debut sold a hell of a lot more before they became well-known than Nirvana's did before they became well-known. (By the way, her trust fund ran out in something like 1995 or 1996.)

A wife with career motive for her husband's suicide rather than the humiliation of being left by Kurt just before her record album is to be released.
See above paragraphs. Also, see what a source of mine has to say in her anonymous thoughts of her own. (About how such a thing is only important in a 7th grade setting.) A link there is found at the home page. And here's an interesting excerpt from a post in the alt.music.nirvana newsgroup from January '96:
"Please, CMLC already had quite a trendy rep overseas via the UK weeklies. And she was already being written up in the New Yorker, of all things. 'Live Through This' got excellent reviews in the all the mags that came out before KC's death. KC's death hindered, not helped her career. Also, wouldn't the death of the perfect band member for your group (Kristen) be something that would harm, not help, the group? (that line-up, and yes, I did see them live, was the best, in my opinion). And the death (or long life) of the homicide detective would have had no effect on CMLC either way, really."

(female version of him)
A wife with a history of threats, vindictiveness, and violence.
Don't forget a wife with a HUSBAND with a history of threats and violence. Grant doesn't tell you this. He makes Courtney AND Kurt out to be people that they are/were not.
I used to leave "vindictiveness" out of the description of Kurt Cobain, but a source of mine had this to say about that:

"Try 'a HUSBAND with a history of threats, VINDICTIVENESS, and violence'. There's some choice bits in CAYA where Kurt admits to some real vindictiveness. He had a very dark and angry side to him; read the book. Though he tended to avoid confrontation, if angered enough, Kurt could be extremely violent."


The evidence will prove Kurt was leaving Courtney. She was not leaving him. So unlike many suicides, rejection by his spouse was NOT a motive.
Evidence of niether has been provided thus far. Show me the indisputable evidence, and I'll shut up about this. (As I now have.) "The evidence will prove..." WHAT EVIDENCE? And besides, knowing what I do about Kurt Cobain, it seems extremely logical that even if it was HIS choice to leave Courtney, this still would very much affect him emotionally, quite possibly a large determinant if he would have gotten to such a depressed state that I believe he did. For God's sake, he cried at his wedding...
He had no serious financial problems, in fact he was turning down millions! So depression over financial matters was NOT a motive.
I never personally thought that it was. He had lots of other junk to worry about, and this I talk about all throughout this entire document.

To Conclude...
This document of mine has been mainly to those who believe the murder conspiracy theory so wholeheartedly without having been provided sufficient evidence to come to the conclusion. As I've said before, I don't believe that even half of the necessary information to make such an important decision has been provided on the Internet. This is NOT an issue that any of us should make for ourselves one way or the other; this is an issue that needs a serious investigation conducted by professionals in Seattle who will hopefully get to the bottom of this.
And whether or not Kurt Cobain was in fact murdered, I still insist that everyone must look at the VERY REAL problems that Kurt Cobain had. Too many people ignore them altogether. That's a dangerous path to follow.

If the time comes that I am satisfied enough that Kurt Cobain may in fact have been murdered, then I will say so. But before I would come close to making that decision, a serious investigation must be conducted. Like I said, none of us should make such an important decision without all of the possible, untainted, evidence. There are too many rumors going around. No one knows what to believe anymore. Debates consist of false rumor vs. false rumor, and that is wrong, and a disgrace to the memory of Kurt Donald Cobain.


As easy as it would be to look beyond the evidence that Kurt was an unwell man, physically as well as emotionally, we should not. We shouldn't criticize him for his weaknesses; we should just understand them. Have pity on his daughter, his soul, and the rest of his family. When someone has the serious problems that Kurt Cobain had, and even worse problems than that, they should NOT be overlooked and denied. They should be understood. I also find it dangerous when people simply deny that the problems that Kurt Cobain had ever existed. This is a trend which has supposed to have STARTED TO DISAPPEAR in the 1990's! He was not perfect, nor was his life perfect. From childhood 'til the day he died, he had problems, and people before him had killed themselves for much less. (For example, those who threw their lives away just because Kurt Cobain did.)

Furthermore I took it upon myself to e-mail Mr. Perle and got a very interesting response back:


Sent: Jan 6, 2005 9:25 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Antagonizing The Murder Theory



Hi Davd,

Love your website. I have a quick question, though. I've read your essay "Antagonizing the Murder Theory" and today I read a revision of it in which you "antagonize" your own theory.

Does this mean you now believe Kurt Cobain was murdered? If so, what made you change your mind?

I'm not attacking, I'm merely curious. Personally I believe the evidence does point to murder but nothing solid points to Courtney; it's pretty circumstantial although very suspicious. It could have been Courtney but then again, it also could have been someone from Geffen Records, Cali, or even Dylan for that matter.

Thanks

JG

Hi, Jane.

Yeah, I slowly but surely came to realize that I was wrong in my original stance. It's been a while since I came around, though. It wasn't just one thing that made me change my mind but the fact that there were numerous points coming out which showed me Tom Grand wasn't quite coming out of left field like I thought he was.

In any case, I'm in the process of changing getting rid of this account after more than ten years (I just can't take the spam anymore!!), so feel free to e-mail me at [e-mail].

David

Like it or not, people are slowing coming around to accept the murder theory, even Courtney's staunchest supporters. The theory is not going to go away; it's getting stronger and stronger and more and more support is coming. Even a man who went to the trouble of debunking the theory now believes there's more to this than an open and shut case of suicide. Think about it.

[Andrea]

Perle contradicts himself on certain points. Secondly he fails to mention or deliberately omits (probably to gain credibility) parts of the murder theory that he can't explain away. And lastly and more importantly, anything that reads 'sources tell me' should be treated with a pinch of salt - if he can't give us factual names and relationships then it's worthless.

I'll say it again. Tom Grant & Wallace and Halperin substantiate their findings with names, sources etc. The book was published by Simon & Schuster. Names ARE quoted. If this information couldn't be verified - statements were taped) then people would be litigating left, right and centre! A lot of people interviewed have put their professional reputations on the line.

Lastly but most obviously - why would Tom Grant devote 10 years of investigation just to slur Courtney Love's character or to perpetuate an elaborate hoax if he wasn't firmly convinced that Kurt was murdered?

[HippieChild]

Perle contradicts himself on certain points. Secondly he fails to mention or deliberately omits (probably to gain credibility) parts of the murder theory that he can't explain away. And lastly and more importantly, anything that reads 'sources tell me' should be treated with a pinch of salt - if he can't give us factual names and relationships then it's worthless.

I'll say it again. Tom Grant & Wallace and Halperin substantiate their findings with names, sources etc. The book was published by Simon & Schuster. Names ARE quoted. If this information couldn't be verified - statements were taped) then people would be litigating left, right and centre! A lot of people interviewed have put their professional reputations on the line.

Lastly but most obviously - why would Tom Grant devote 10 years of investigation just to slur Courtney Love's character or to perpetuate an elaborate hoax if he wasn't firmly convinced that Kurt was murdered?

That's prolly one reason why he had a change of heart; he realized the ignorance and contraditions of his statements. He also realized that Tom Grant isn't so full of sh*t afterall.

Amazing isn't it? One of Courtney's strongest supporters, who actually e-mailed her on a regular basis, did an about face. Looks like the murder theory isn't such crap afterall.

[Danielle Loves Kurt]

itslikeatradeoff said:

Oh my Danielle that sure isn't doing you self-righteous intellectual individual appearance any favors is it?

At least I don't just follow Hippiechild around putting pressure on people who disagree with her. You don't know much about Kurts death anyway, you even responded to the Rome post I made by saying you didn't know. Remember So shut up.

That was a bit strange wasn't it? Well I don't have any explanation for that sorry perhaps Hippie will. I'm sure of one thing: Kurt was murdered. As for Courtney plotting his death: it's an educated guess.


Hippiechild, I just thought I'd let you know one thing I have learnt from studying pyschology that relates to this issue. Many people point out that Kurt was happy while he was in Exodus. But pyschologists believe that many suicidial individuals go through a happy phrase before they kill themselves due to planning their own death. [By your post he had already loaded the gun and thus made plans] It's possiblity. Also Kurt did write a letter to his mother, wife and daughter. Courtney has it and has spoken about it in many inteviews. She claims it is very long because Kurt continually calims 'I'm sorry I love you, I love Frances I'm sorry' She found it months after Kurt killed himself in a secret hiding space with his favourite toy chim chim in a place where he knew she would find it.

You have filed pages of pages about the murder conspircy here and you seem to be debunking it more than supporting it before you reach the last few lines. I understand people can believe the theory, I use to. But somewhere between the fingerprints possibily being smudged off the gun, the evidence regarding Terry Antonio being suspect, examiners now claiming that they can't prove if it was Kurts writing or not on the suicide note, etc, etc. I've stopped believing the tripe.

I'd also like to point out that I think it's odd that people say Courtney killed Kurt to further her career. Courtney had pretty much put her career on hold to court Kurt and have his child. Not just that but if she wanted Kurts money why did she intially sign a prenup? . Besides Courtney did have enough of her own money. Not to mention she had saved Kurts life after the Rome incident. Kurt walked through the door one night in late March on the verge of overdosing and she injected him with drugs to stop the overdose.. If she wanted him dead she could of killed him then too.


You can think whatever you want to think. I'm not going to force you to change your mind. I have my beliefs and I'm pretty sure there correct. It's been over 10 years since Kurt killed himself and if the murder was theory was true and evidence that Grant proudly displays on his webpage is true with no admissions I think it would be in court. I happen to believe the old saying that 'You're innocent until proven guilty' [in a court of law]. And that's where I stand on the issue. I believe in the legal process. TEXT

[HippieChild]

1. ILATO does not blindly follow me around. She has a mind of her own. Yes, we agree on certain points regarding the murder issue, so what? As for telling her to shut up, grow up. What, are you sticking your tongue out at her through the computer, going nyaa nyaa nyaa?

2.

. But pyschologists believe that many suicidial individuals go through a happy phrase before they kill themselves due to planning their own death. [By your post he had already loaded the gun and thus made plans] It's possiblity. Also Kurt did write a letter to his mother, wife and daughter. Courtney has it and has spoken about it in many inteviews. She claims it is very long because Kurt continually calims 'I'm sorry I love you, I love Frances I'm sorry' She found it months after Kurt killed himself in a secret hiding space with his favourite toy chim chim in a place where he knew she would find it.

You studied pschology, good for you. I worked in that field for years and let me tell you something, they seem suddenly happy it's because they decided to commit suicide IS A MYTH. Yes some people leave notes explaining why they did it, mostly because they can't stand the pain anymore, but they don't go around with big grins pasted on their faces because they're gonna kill themselves soon. Some people rashly kill themselves because something happened to trigger their emotions and they are overwhelmed; some people plan it out carefully to make sure their families are taken care of before they do it but are far from happy; case in point: One 17 year old girl I worked with for a while. She had a fight with her mother before her mother left for work. Her mom, who was a very volitile woman herself, said something very cruel to her before slamming the door behind her on her way out. After her mom left The girl noticed a knife stuck in a cheese dish and still sobbing from what her mother said, reached for the knife and slashed her wrists three times, cutting open her veins and nearly bleeding to death. Fortunately she was found by her best friend and was rushed to the hospital. This was an unplanned response; she had had enough and reached for the nearest thing to end her pain. Another case, Freddie Prinz Sr. He spoke to his wife about a reconciliation, was rejected, and in anguish picked up a gun and blew his brains out. IMPULSIVE. It's also been my experience that the ones who do plan ahead and are serious are not happy, though they do make sure their loved ones are taken care of before they die. They sometimes leave notes of explaination, saying why they are doing this, but don't give themselves away nor are they "happy" because they're going to end it. The goal is to end the pain as quickly as possible. Obviously they are distressed. Furthermore the body of Kurt's so-called "suicide note" never said he was going to kill himself. It read as a farewell to his fans except for the last 4 lines, which differ in many ways from the body of the note. He also signed it Kurt D. Cobain. Strange signature for a letter addressed to a wife he supposedly loved.

3. Do your homework. That note your talking about was the Rome note, which she later burned. She told Rolling Stone magazine about the note claiming it was in a safety deposit box. Later the SPD needed something to compare the handwriting too and Courtney gave them the note. When Sargeant Cameron gave it back he advised Courtney, "this will never do you any good. I'd get rid of it if I were you. So, according to Courtney "I burned it." Furthermore, it was addressed to Courtney, not his mother, whom he couldn't stand, telling her he was leaving her, divorcing her, NOT KILLING HIMSELF. Courtney herself admitted this.

4. You write:

You have filed pages of pages about the murder conspircy here and you seem to be debunking it more than supporting it before you reach the last few lines. I understand people can believe the theory, I use to. But somewhere between the fingerprints possibily being smudged off the gun, the evidence regarding Terry Antonio being suspect, examiners now claiming that they can't prove if it was Kurts writing or not on the suicide note, etc, etc. I've stopped believing the tripe.

Read it again. It was written by David Perle, the man who wrote "Antagonizing the murder theory" which you posted a few weeks back. I found out later that he changed his mind and in the revision, he added things to his theory (see some bold faces) indicating he no longer believed this and in his e-mail (see bottom of post) told me "It took a while to come around but yes, he now believes it was murder. Furthermore, yes fingerprints can become smudged but that doesn't account for lack of fingerprints on the pen he wrote with, nor the lack of anything other than the four original prints when he was clutching the gun. Nothing. Clean. He shot himself, wiped the pen clean, stuck it in the note, then wiped the gun?

5. You wrote:

I'd also like to point out that I think it's odd that people say Courtney killed Kurt to further her career. Courtney had pretty much put her career on hold to court Kurt and have his child. Not just that but if she wanted Kurts money why did she intially sign a prenup? . Besides Courtney did have enough of her own money. Not to mention she had saved Kurts life after the Rome incident. Kurt walked through the door one night in late March on the verge of overdosing and she injected him with drugs to stop the overdose.. If she wanted him dead she could of killed him then too.

False. This happened a few years earlier before the taping of SNL. She also shot him up with valium, which is known to aggrevate rather than help. Another foiled murder attempt? I don't know. Maybe, or maybe she wasn't sure of what she was doing. But that didn't happen after Rome. There was no OD after Rome until his death. Furthermore, if Courtney killed him (and I never say she did because I don't know for sure) she had money and notoriety to gain. All of Kurt's millions and the notoriety of being his "Rock widow" which she plays to the hilt, even going so far as to similate his death while performing in concert by putting her finger to her mouth like a gun and screaming "Kurt! Kurt!" Pretty sick, if you ask me.

6. You wrote:

It's been over 10 years since Kurt killed himself and if the murder was theory was true and evidence that Grant proudly displays on his webpage is true with no admissions I think it would be in court. I happen to believe the old saying that 'You're innocent until proven guilty' [in a court of law]. And that's where I stand on the issue. I believe in the legal process.

The SPD, like most police departments, would be admitting to shoddy work and incompetancy, and their professional pride and reputations are on the line. Another case; Greenwich, 1974 I believe, Martha Moxley was bludgeoned to death by Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel, who lived free for the next 25 years while the case remained cold although he was the main suspect in this case. Finally thanks to Mark Furman and his book "Murder in Greenwich" the case was reopened, tried and finally Skakel was found guilty and sentenced. Greenwich police knew they had investigated shoddily and refused to admit it and it took another police "brother" to finally get the case reopened. TWENTY FIVE YEARS, but it finally happened and justice was served. Tom Grant has vowed to equally work as long until the case is reopened. All he wants is the truth; he's not trying to get Courtney convicted he just wants to know what happened but Courtney refuses to cooperate.

I'm not trying to get you to "change your mind". Believe what you want to believe. However, your arguments are not solidly based and you don't back things up properly. Your feeble, lame and it's so easy to debunk you it's getting boring. All I'm saying is back up your evidence. You fail to do that and instead post stupid things like "he put it in Frances' chim-chim" and he ODed after Rome. Obviously you are buying into what Courtney says, you are listening to rumors from other people, or you just don't know what your talking about.

Also, in response to your previous post, let me reiterate a few things. I did not depend "soley on websites" for my information. I started with websites and went on to read everything I could get my hands on regarding this case before I drew my own conclusions and made sure I was well informed about the circumstances before I believed in the murder theory. I've read books, articles and essays to draw my conclusions. "Who Killed Kurt Cobain" BOOK. "Love and Death" BOOK. "Dead men don't pull triggers" ESSAY. and so on and so on and so on. You irritate me with your feeble responses and uniformed postings to the point I can feel my blood pressure rising and I'm looking for a way to block your posts at this point because I come here to talk to friends as well as discuss the murder theory, not to get irritated by someone who hasn't done her homework and counters with "But they had sex after the Rome incident. You don't have sex with someone you hate." AARRGGH!!!! I'm also still waiting for you to post that article, which you have repeatedly refused to do. Why? I think it's because you don't have it but rather heard someone tell you that and took it as gospel.

Believe what you want, that's fine. But do your research before you post things as fact. ILATO, Andrea, and LSYY, who is all of what, 16(?) are more informed than you. They've studied the case and they've studied Courtney and give intelligent responses, rather than the drivel you've been posting. THINK!!!

[NeitherSide]

The Rome note is lost and I have several sources indicating that he was leaving and he asked Courtney not to search or follow him. He also said he wanted a divorce and was gonna quit music.

According to Courtney, there was another note under her pillow, but Tom Grant got her lying on tape about this. He had checked underneath the pillows and matrasses on the 7th of April, together with Dylan Carlson. Also, Cali and Erlandson have claimed to have searched "every nook and cranny" without finding anything (this was on the 5th of April). Kurt died on the 5th, with a 24-hour margin. So, when Cali and Erlandson searched the Greenhouse then, Kurt was most probably already dead.